Episode 10 - Looking into the challenges faced by the Pandemic in the IT and Aviation Industries

Roberta:  Welcome to this current edition of Insights, a warm welcome to our followers both those who have been following us from the very beginning from the inception of this series of webinars, as well as the new followers who have just joined us now. 

Insight is a series of webinars for the benefit of those who are joining us for the first time, which I Roberta Lepre, from Weave Consulting the CSR specialists together with my colleague, Nadia Pace, Business Strategist, have put together to bring to you key insights from leading entrepreneurs across the globe. And today, to share their knowledge and their expertise. We have two fantastic guests from Greece and Cyprus, we have with us George Sarris as well as Ioannis Pantazopoulos, welcome, a warm welcome to you. 

Ioannis:  Thank you for having us.

Roberta:  So maybe George starts with you, perhaps you could introduce yourself and your company and a little bit about your background?

George:  Yes. So I'm the managing director of Hosting B2B. Hosting B2B is an enterprise hosting provider. We provide the server solutions for enterprise clients in in Malta, Cyprus in UK. We are focusing on high end solutions for AI gaming and betting companies, that's why we exist in Mata and we have recently launched a blockchain solution which we think that it would be the new era for the industry, both in the digital transformation of Malta and Cyprus, as well as blockchain islands. The company's philosophy is to invest in in people tend to invest in technology as well, everyday there is a new start-up coming in and technology vendors are launching new services every day. So we have many years of experience in enterprise networks or as I said.

Nadia:  So you've just started the company, your boss a few months ago, just before the pandemic started or during?

George:  So we started a company, this new venture with a blockchain solution. But you know, company management is not something new for me, I've been in and out of, of managing a few brands throughout the years. And hopefully this will be my, I will not say the last but is my first solo project that I'm doing in this career path, let's say. Innovtion path

Ioannis:  Kalimera, from my side as well. I am responsible for managing three countries for Air France, and KLM as a group, those are Greece, Turkey and Cyprus. And by the brand, you understand that I work for the aviation industry, of course, the one that has been hit the most, during all incidences and the pandemic as well, which I guess what we touch upon a bit later. I've been in the airline industry, as much as I can remember myself, actually, to be honest, I am glad and I feel privileged that they always had an international career. So I had the privilege to work around in many countries, in and out Europe. So that gave me a lot of understanding of other cultures and other entrepreneurs in other industries as well. So this is where I am and as I said, we are in the middle of the hurricane as an airline, and we are trying to figure out a way to get out of this. So this is where we are.

Roberta:  In terms of Hurricane Ioannis, perhaps you can elaborate further a little bit. What were the main impacts? Obviously, the aviation in this year was one of the hardest hit, what would you say were and still are your main challenges?

Ioannis:  To start with, I would love to give you two numbers, I will not make it so scientific, but I guess it will be two numbers that everybody can understand. I have a metric that has been done for IATA, and for those of you who don't know, IATA is the foundation of the airline Association, community. But just to go back to the number I want to give this to you. The revenue, we call in our language, the RB gates, the revenue per available kilometres. So the revenue the money that we earn for every passenger that they fly from one point to another in 2020. And this is a year over year index went down by 94% 94%. Whereby also the same period, the available seat kilometres. So the available capacity, the available flights, the available seats that were in the market globally, went down by 87%. So these two numbers we can, I think these are the two numbers that you can keep. I mean, this, this tells a story whether we want to name it hurricane, whether we want to name it, I don't know, unprecedented situation we can we can tag it. 

So this is a situation which probably you have seen it yourselves you don't see most probably if you look outside your windows are probably back in a couple of months ago, three or four months, you could see planes flying in or flying over your airspace, you don't see that very often now. And the biggest challenge for the aviation industry is was unique first of all to see, majority of the carriers is not operating at all, it was a pause. 

So historically speaking, we've seen crisis just to name some we've seen 9/11 we've seen SARS, we can go a bit further if we want to Iraqi war and so on so forth. But we never seen the airline industry pausing. So that is one of the things that is a first ever. And in on average during these periods, the maximum capacity that we've seen worldwide, and as the numbers have described, is around 90% was grounded. So that's to me, even to think of. It's an unprecedented thing, as I said, and that was the biggest challenge. And so as I said, that's the biggest.

Nadia:  Obviously that number Uranus permeates all the operation, obviously not only from a commercial aspect, but also from an operational aspect from strategic aspect, from a sustainability perspective as well, because obviously, as we all know, the airline can pause for maybe a week, but for a month, or even running two months or three months or even a little bit more depending on the country and depending on the situation. That is obviously it's going to hit the aviation industry at a larger, much larger expense. In fact, we've already been witnessing redundancies, massive redundancies across the globe in terms of the aviation industry because of the sustainability aspect. 

So today, Roberta, we have two different contexts completely we have George, coming from the IT industry an IT background hosting solutions, working remotely supporting companies were probably obviously your costs will be able to give us a completely different picture because obviously the demand was on the high side, whereas Ioannis’ is definitely his situation is completely different. Because the situation within the aviation industry, as we said, is still coming to go. A number of different changes.

Roberta:  So I'm going back a little bit of a throwback Nadia to one of our earlier editions where we're still bringing Insights specifically for Malta. We also had the leading player in the aviation industry here who was going through a similar hurricane to use Ioannis’ phrase? So it seems like that industry specifically has been the hardest hit all over the globe? 

Nadia:  Indeed, this was his from the very beginning, obviously, because once you close the airport, and then your connection between countries, then obviously, even the ground handling stuff, and even the airport facilities. It's even the ancillary services surrounding the [unintelligible]. 

Ioannis:  Just to add to what you're saying, Roberta and Nadia, we also need to have in our mind, the dependency that the industry aviation has when it comes to employment. So this is a great dependency is not only the aviation, which people might think, okay, it's an airline what happened with an airline that is not just the airline, that dependency goes and it's far broader than we can think of. So this just in our minds.

George:  Your experience?

Nadia:  Was it completely different your costs? Was it a matter of having to deal with the additional demands with the additional requests that your clients responded to the pandemic in terms of the services you provide.

George:  So coming from an island, myself, such as Malta, once you close the board, it's very difficult to generate any local business within the country. Add to that with a total lockdown. Everyone's staying home in an island, which there are not much things to do, apart from the sea. It's a nice weather and stuff. So I guess I know that from Ioannis that the aviation hit was 94% per mile. And then 87% seat capacity. I am guessing the only valid business was the repatriation flights.

Roberta:  I suppose. And committed commercial flights, I presume.

Ioannis:  The main the main operation, but then was repatriating to those that we could repatriate and the authorities were enabling the airlines to fly in and out of these countries and cargo operations.

George:  Yes. So that's very important. From the technology perspective, we have seen business that we are ready for this digital scale scalability, I will name it. And now we have seen companies that they were ready, with our consulting, to scale up fast and pick up with the demand not to stop their operations. 

And we see companies that and due to, like Marta has a limitation with bandwidth in the remote locations local business internet is not sufficient to sustain any remote work. My example is that companies that had their servers in the in the office couldn't support traffic when their employees, were working from home. So you have a very minimal Internet bandwidth, which is not compliant to sustain more than X amount of people connecting remotely at the same time. 

So the need for a local data centre in both Cyprus and Marta was very, very, very high. That's one thing. So people wanted to co-locate their equipment in our local data centres, which the bandwidth was high enough to sustain their whole business procedures. So thank God, once again, the technology sector and the IT sector it remained a need through this pandemic. And not only a need, if I use If you allow me to say, but it flourished into another new perspective, with services such as remote working solutions coming up, now, we've seen cloud solutions, perhaps as well. 

Nadia:  Even from a redundancy perspective. 

George:  I would come to that that's a nice pass. And we've seen solutions, remote working solutions, we've seen these cloud conspiracy theories coming up. But when you are, when you are, when you are a manager, and you have to choose between shutting down your business, or giving your data to the cloud, and eventually trust that then the tech giants will do their part in protecting your data and your end clients by end of the day. So I asked, I expect to see an increase in cloud technology throughout 2021, 2022. 

Nadia:  So there was a shift of mind-set as well, your records for companies, especially those companies that like you mentioned, that didn't trust, perhaps having the data on the cloud. Whereas they had full control and or they felt that they have full control of the data internally, then they have to trust to outsource it for continuous sustainability, which is, is very interesting.

George:  Not to trust the cloud, but to trust also the message. Because when you see the server at your office, or any technology in you suppose that this is secure, because I have the keyboard, I have the key to my office, and nobody can touch the server while I have the key. But because of their inexperience, they don't know that actually hosting the server from your office, it can cause multiple security issues. Because in the cloud, you have authentication logging, you have two factor authentication, you have an adaptive artificial intelligence security solutions, and you have this so many tools to protect your data.

Nadia:  To more than trade. Yes, for sure. So probably, as you said, some for some companies, it was much easier than others for sure, because some of those were prepared. Some companies were prepared, like companies within the outsourcing industry companies that have part of their provision based on IT solutions.

George:  The companies was proactive was the companies that understand how they may have been regulated or certified. So ISO 1227 001 certification, ISO 9001, ISO 22 304, which is a business continuity and MGA licenses, MFSA licenses for Malta and from Cyprus companies, those were the guys that they were ready to do the transition because they were forced to keep a disaster recovery site and business continuity plans, backup solutions, offsite backup, as well.

Nadia:  There was a certain readiness for sure. In that respect because those certifications are very thorough, and for sure, they go through all the different procedures within the operation. So as we mentioned Roberta again, for your guys, it was it was a completely different situation than Ioannis.

Roberta:  I find this interesting, as well, the point that has been made about certification because these are often considered to be cumbersome procedures, but this is a clear example of how the  investment of time and energy into making sure that the business processes I was set out ultimately resulted in more resilience, more adaptability, more readiness, as you said. 

Nadia:  It might be the bureaucracy and the administrative tasks which go with a certification process for most companies, definitely there's a clear advantage especially when in times of need and change and resilience. 

in terms of, I'm interested to listen to what Ioannis a little bit more in terms of challenges, perhaps Ioannis, because from a practical, more practical aspect, so to speak, from an view to the aviation industry of obviously, in your case, if you can highlight the three main challenges that you faced, I know that you have a myriad of different aspects and different challenges that that you've encountered, and the list is endless, I'm pretty sure about that. But three main challenges that that we're at the top of where each and every agenda on a daily basis, what would you consider to be the, as soon as the pandemic head was started, we're still discussing a little with the pre COVID.

Ioannis:  If we're still the pre-COVID, not that many things have changed, though it’s basically an airline industry. However, for an airline, the biggest challenge always, really will remain always not to be able to operate to fly. So we are talking about an industry that has been built upon carrying passengers from A to B, those, those four the need to fly. 

So the pandemic, the biggest challenge for an airline during the pandemic, pre-COVID, even during COVID or post COVID, that we will discuss eventually. But definitely the biggest and we are I mean, the greatest challenge for us was always not being able to operate. And just to clarify myself here, not to the extent that the airline didn't wish to operate, because by the way, in France KLM group was one of the groups that never stopped operating all these months, never. But we were operating only, and that comes our second challenge, to those countries that they were given us the hygiene protocols, and the clearance in order to operate. 

To give you an example, today for marine and offshore, for instance, which Malta is also one of the countries that has a knowledge about Merchant Marine, a lot of Filipinos, they need to go back to their countries, because they've been stranded, we've been locked down in our houses, there are people that they've been locked down in an in a vessel. And knowing that, you know, their time has come to an end, meaning that their duty time has come to an end and all of a sudden, and they need to stay there more. So at this stage, we cannot even carry passages from A to B and I mentioned Filipinos, because they are very [unintelligible]. Just because regularities from the countries does not allow yet European carriers that operate there. 

So not being able to operate with all I think, is the greatest challenge of all. And of course, there are a lot of things that can come as a result of that, which comes down to people not being able to work properly. People that need to work remotely in some functions in our industry, people can work remotely and others, they cannot. So a lot of challenges have hit us. But they all started from the fact that an airline cannot fly. If you if you try to think about it. I mean, it's like you have a supermarket with how without having anything to sell in it. So I think that is the foundation of the challenges, and then all the challenges that come as a result of that. Exactly.

Nadia:  And in fact, looking a little bit forward, if I may, in the coming in the coming weeks, and perhaps Months Ioannis, there is a bit of a situation of perhaps three steps forward. Another step backwards, because obviously we don't really know yet how it will pan out. We're saying post-COVID. But the terminology in itself isn't actually very precise or correct, because we're already seeing some countries that might be, the numbers of COVID reported cases are increasing. They're retracting a little bit back, Israel had to close down and go back on lockdown and other countries kind of following and going back to restrictive measures. So obviously this is not over yet. This is a situation which we still have to go into transit and perhaps to learn and try and live. 

Because we are having now discussions. Even at an economic level and an economic perspective, whether we can afford and whether some countries can afford another lockdown, or total lockdown, because from a health perspective is one thing, but an economic from an economic perspective is completely different. So we’re definitely, we're not out of the woods yet. So for sure, it's it, this is going to be an extended challenge. And Q3 and Q4, I believe for most companies, especially the tourism, aviation, tourism and other related sectors are going to really watch carefully, because that will determine how deep will be the depth for those particular segments. And so, how do you consider this going forward Ioannis? Is it true that we're going to go back and forth, we have to analyse on a week by week basis on a monthly basis and assess the situation across countries because you you're also managing three different countries. So that's a challenge in itself.

Ioannis:  Alright, three different countries with different use in three different regulations when it goes down to pandemic. So one country is in European Union, one other countries outside European Union, and the third countries within European Union, but outside Schengen, so, we never thought that this will play a significant role. Three months down, you know, before now we say no, no, no, no, that's place hell a lot of difference. Because Schengen does something different. EU does something different, and only you does something different. And that's, that's, of course, making the situation more complex. 

The most important thing, and I will start with this is one thing that we learned, first of all, is that we cannot plan ahead anymore. And the best example of that is any career, as included, we now only publish our network, what we call a skeleton network, to a maximum of two months ahead. Two months ahead, that's a maximum, we only know and we can vouch, and we can be sure about what will happen the next three to four weeks that that's a month, but in order to attract more business, we go to this extent. So that is one of the biggest, again challenges. And be not being so secure, not feeling so assertive that things will change. 

The first thing also that we need to accept is us as human beings, we have changed our behaviour. And I think it all starts with our behaviour. Because at the end of the day, we are all customers. Okay, we are all entrepreneurs in some way, but we are all customers. So if our behaviour have changed, everybody else's behaviour have changed. To that perspective, we know that we need to reconsider the way we do our business. We have this meeting today via video. Back in the old days, we would love to meet each other, kiss each other and then have an open fire and discuss now we see the convenience of it. 

But we also see the cost efficiencies of it, then we have to be very honest. So there are a lot of things to consider. 

Also, when it comes down to aviation specifically, it seems that we are going to need to open up our mind a bit, we're going to need to use seen our stewardesses and students wearing the mask like being in a surgery room. And your fellow passenger like that. We need to get used on how important is social distancing, we need to also be a bit more responsible on washing our hands and doing things differently. A lot of things will change. Things are changing as we speak, I always go back to myself and see where I was four months down the road and where we are now. So my behaviour, let me talk about myself has changed. So I can now understand why my customers’ behaviour has changed and we change and we also need to be a bit pragmatic. 

Talking about numbers, what we expect about the costs scales and the efficiencies to change. This is the one thing and in my industry, again, I advise predicting that nothing will change and go back to a normal situation normally is 2019, before 2000, end of 2022, beginning of 2023, which we can only speculate, assume. And we need to define what is changed.

Nadia:  It's the same prediction actually, that or at least as a ballpark figure, for tourism in Malta as well. So the prediction is 2021, at the best 2022, to reach 2019 numbers, all things being equal, and that's has quite, quite a heavy weight in itself as a remark.

George:  I, this is my remark 2019, because we need to clarify that as well. Going back to 2019, we just compare two numbers. But we also need to think 2019, from a other perspective, also, they increase of the capacity of the demand that was expecting because it was a year with, you know, with less recession, Europe in the world was in a better shape than 2018, we were expecting another it's an 11% increase. When we're talking 2019, we're talking, you know, this 11% will never come back. Anyway. So we're talking flat numbers here. 

But yes, nobody can actually tell us whether to 2021 2022 or 23, or whatever is the right number, or the right time that everything will go back. What I can tell you from our perspective, is that the airline industry, we are trying gradually, depending on how and when we are permitted to fly over that to regain our capacity and our dynamic by end of year in that is the end of 2020 and been able to recuperate at least 50%, 50% of our current operation. So that to give you a scale, to understand where we stand at this stage and what our expectation, but as I said, we can only plan ahead at a very short time in very short notice you're seeing it and you understand what I'm saying?

Roberta:  Yes, I'd like to just latch on to something that you mentioned just a few minutes ago, which is really about the ability of a leader of a manager to accept and to actually embrace change. I think again, this is one of the key insights that has been a recurring theme within the various episodes that we've had. However, we’re seeing as well in practical terms working on the ground, that it seems that there are two kinds of leaders. So the ones who are waiting and hoping that everything will go back to what they are we considered as normal. And the ones who are actually accepting the things will not be the same and that they are ready unwilling to accept change. What do you think are the qualities which distinguish between these two types?

Ioannis: To me the most important thing is at those stages, you need to demonstrate responsibility, this this is the most important thing for me. You need to in order to demonstrate first of all responsibility, you need to understand where you where you are, what is the situation. So based on this analysing and understanding the situation, then to me the most and the utmost important is responsibility to do to proceed and approach these kind of things with responsibility because we need to mind that for a leader, just because other people are seeing you not only what you're saying they see your body language, they see your face on a daily basis, they see whether you're smiling, whether you are not smile that whether you're sad, so that might tell us a story. 

So, to me responsibility is very important. Also, being interactive with the peers in the team is also very important in the utmost important and this is what we are doing today and we are exercising keeping the communication flow. It is very important during the crisis, to communicate constantly with your peers with your teams is like you know a situation whereby when you fly on board and you feel that the plane is a bit shaky. You only feel good when you hear the captain say, ladies and gentlemen, nothing to worry about is just a bumpy plane. 

So this is to me a proof of a leader that you are on top of the situation you're controlling the situation you'll last for, I wanted to sum it up in the word called responsibility, you can only deal with situations like that, being responsible. And of course, you need more skills than that you need to know how to plan, especially when you deal with different people, different cultures. You need to respect many, many, many things, you need to understand practices challenges. And, of course, the thing that a leader should do for himself is to need to, control stress situations, because we are only humans. Each and every one of us. And at the end of the day, you need to start with yourself in order to be ready to present yourself to greater audiences. So that's if I want to sum it up in in few words.

Nadia:  Excellent summary Ioannis? George, what do you think? How leaders behaviour? How did the behaviour of leaders change?

George:  Ioannis mentioned some very, very interesting things. Today, I'm not an aviation expert, but you know, I was in a good aviation client. I used to, at least once a month, sometimes two or three times, and depending on expos and exhibitions, and you know, the business, I mean, in a global scale, I think we'll be in a, okay, it took the first hit about a month or two, but I can I see that the business is coming back to normal now. Innovation is the mind-set that covers most businesses nowadays. And I think as a global perspective, I will be optimistic and see that the global economy, okay, it will take a hit, but it will not take a hit as the global economic crisis of 2012. 

I would say, now that you cannot, you cannot have it, the cost of acquiring a client will be very minimal, because you will do the Zoom meeting, and your services and your products are there. So, on-boarding a client or a lead or marketing your product can be very less, less, less costs, I would say. So you can put an ad into Facebook into social media and acquire you don't have to go, you don't have to pay yourself a an exhibition stand.

Nadia:  True. From that aspect I can see your point because I beg to defer on many fronts, because I still believe that nothing beats the one on one, especially when you're closing a deal. So obviously there are different schools of thought. And one would have to see where they can fit, how innovative they can be, how can they reach the client, and more importantly, to touch base to touch upon something that Ioannis mentioned as well is the constant the changes in the consumer behaviour? Because obviously, this will definitely have an impact of how we are going to reach our customers or newly acquired customers with their new behaviour. So obviously, I also agree with Ioannis that even my behaviour is consumer changed completely, almost drastically over the period of three months in many aspects. So let alone have you take that to a global perspective and to a global scale, I think but definitely your costs, let's say positive and optimistic because definitely from every crisis, we we've all read about companies that are successful and versatile during crisis. 

So there will be opportunities for sure. There's others putting out of the box were innovative to collaborate with the right people and find the right way to launch into the markets. Interesting discussion Roberta.

George:  I think people will not go on holidays today, this year. And that's, that's for sure. So that's why I expect they will do much work during a summer type. And in my country in Malta as well, the forecast was a whole holiday month. Everyone was closed. The factories was closed. And everything was, it was like a dead man. 

So now we're three months in lockdown. Yes, yes. And, you know, in Cyprus, because we still have a recovery from the other economic crisis that hit us before this year, and we see the housing industry, taking a rapid expansion in Cyprus. So then the building industry, the manufacturing industry, which it was total lockdown during August time periodically, in Cyprus, I would say, and it's his managing easy to keep up with the demand to finish government buildings, investments from foreign capitals. So they will definitely have to work during August time. And in September, that's why I'm being optimistic. 

Nadia:  Well done. 

Ioannis:  Can I just add a comment and George's story to what I just mentioned. Sorry, George, but I have a different view when it comes to tourism. And you're just proof of changing the behaviour. Sorry to say that. You come and I we come from countries that we are heavily dependent on tourists and services. And I'm in a position to know that tourists both, in both cases Cyprus and Greece will come based on the loads that we see, and, to my perspective, this is very promising. And I'm really happy to see going back to the behaviour of the more we change the behaviour, us, the more, we can go back to whatever we call normal. And allow me just to say, especially for the aviation, especially the airlines, they have invested a lot in order to make sure that people will be on board as safe as possible. 

So these I wish to mention, unlike most probably other means of transportation, which I do not know, what are the developments there, but at least for airlines and airports, I can say that they have invested, even though the costs and the revenues were struggling, to say the least, they have invested a lot to make sure that customers can be on board safe and healthy. They have changed filters, we have done so many things that I know is not the time to mention. But please the only way for us to, to change the behaviour of others is to change our behaviour. That's the utmost important and also to stress the things that are happening in order to have people quickly back on board, and quickly back in our countries in order to enjoy the services that we can provide. Sorry for that.

Nadia:  Thank you very much. 

George:  I love I love traveling, so don't worry. Okay, my consumer behaviour, at least after the vaccine, which recent publications are mentioning that it will be ready within the proposed timeframe of early next year. So I'm just being optimistic.

Nadia:  Of course, of course, we have to be optimistic as much as possible, I believe.

Roberta:  And maybe on this optimistic note as well. I don't know if you share this view. But I've heard that being said that COVID to a certain extent, gave us the opportunity to pause and to actually reassess what we are doing and how we are doing it. Because perhaps before the pandemic hit us, we were so much pursuing our day to day objectives and really chasing growth that we didn't really have time to reflect. 

So this was also an opportunity, perhaps for some to reset the business model and their business processes. Would you share this view?

Ioannis:  Yes, definitely. Anything that gives you the time to pause, for many things, that also gives you the time for consideration. First of all, to go through yourself to go through others to go through things that you haven't done through things that you need to do. You need to assess things, you need to review things, and you need to reconsider things. So yes, that, that's for sure. And if we want to have a conclusion for that, allow me to say that from many crisis, the biggest gain is that we need to learn today from this crisis, we need to learn if we just consider that this was just another crisis. So we managed to overcome with whatever way and then we move on with our lives, then most probably, we have done completely wrong. 

To me, this is the learning curve. Okay, it's tough. We are all in to that. It's absolutely tough. But there is a learning curve. So we need to learn from the crisis that will make us more intelligent. Next time, there is something else going on, which we couldn't know. But at least that's my understanding, I want to learn more, I want to understand I want to adopt into the new situation, I want to adopt my behaviour. Because if I don't do that, and I, then I'm just all alone in this planet, just crying out for whatever happened till today. So this to me, is the most important.

Nadia:  Interesting. Brilliant. So any, any other comments? If not, we would like to thank you both for being with us today. George, you wanted to say something before we close up?

George:  Yes, I want to mention that. Each pause, is a very good chance to keep up with yourself. And not as a businessman, but as a as a human being. What you are doing, are you happy with what you are doing? I mean, you have to love what you do in order to be successful. And that's, that's my main recipe for success in everything. And so, if you are if you find yourself in a situation where you are not happy, and such pause breaks, give you them the possibility to reinvent yourself. So, necessary changes, perhaps, yes, you have to make the necessary changes in order to be happy, and life is short. But if you do it good enough, Is this enough? That's what they say. Right?

Nadia:  And for sure, the Greek and the Cypriot way is a nice way of living life 

George:  I had my holidays for this year was a sailing yacht from Volos to Skyros from Skyros to Milos, I mean, I mean, I'm a holder of sailing yacht license. So for me, I missed that. And I'm still optimistic.

Ioannis:  There’s no need to miss George. Greece is opening up as you may aware of, for the tourists and officially it's opening up the door his stores on July the first so stick on your plan. As long as your behaviour is positive. Things will change.

Roberta:  Amazing. Thank you. 

George:  Thanks for having us. 

Ioannis:  Thank you so much for having us. Thank you very much.